Talk:Monk Guide by Gisselle/Archive1
Archiving here old discussions from the talk page of my monk guide. --Gisselle 03:26, 23 June 2007 (CDT) Backlink: Monk Guide by Gisselle Boreas Cesti Ok, since it is still coming up, i make a seperate section to discuss them. They have to be compared to Impact Knuckles, the level 32 weapon of choice. I think we all agree, that they have to be better than these, or the camping of the NM will not be worth it. After all, then you would use the Boreas only 2 levels. Advantages of Boreas: +0-7 wind damage, faster. Advantages of Impact Knuckles: 2 more base damage, +1 Str, +3 Acc, 0.3% more tp/hit I do not use any 3rd party software, so i can not parse them. But the statistics are pretty clear in my opinion. In the very best case Boreas are equal to Impact, and for me that does not qualify Boreas over Impact, and even less makes it worth camping an NM. An NM by the way which can not be taken down solo with a lvl 30 monk. You need a higher level job or help. Then you will spend hours in Beaucedine Glacier. My opinion is to use Impact. To go into detail: tp and speed about cancle each other out. Base damage and str are about equal to the wind damage. leaves the advantage of +3 Acc on Impacts. If anything is more advantageous for Boreas, then it will not be more than these +3 Acc. So whichever angle you take to look at this issue, there will be no big advantage for Boreas. Impact Knuckles are easy to get, since they drop from Mee Deggi the Punisher, which is farmed for Ochiudo's Kote, so they are usually available for a sensible price in the auction house. --Gisselle 11:04, 4 December 2006 (EST) Heh, but there's just something cool about Enspell effects ^^ --Chrisjander 11:18, 4 December 2006 (EST) Lol, but yes, they seem to fascinate people. Ah, and i found a use for the Boreas Cesti: Any level 30 cap situation where you want to go as monk. Probably the best weapon for these cases --Gisselle 17:05, 4 December 2006 (EST) The NM for them doesn't seem so bad, since all it drops is this weapon. Rare/ex means people wouldn't camp it unless they were using it, and with an approx respawn of 1-2hours, it managable for friends to help an aspiring mnk. --Chrisjander 20:27, 4 December 2006 (EST) Just want to weight in here; hands down, best weapon all the way to the cross-counters has to be Hydro Claws +1- if you can find them. Make sure you have Kilo Pumps though. The additional effect doesn't go off as often as I would like, but it should happen at least once every other fight; when it DOES go off though, it usually does between 30-50 damage (I've seen it do 50 a couple times, never higher, that's probably the cap). As a plus, they have the same damage rating as the Impact Knuckles but less delay. +1 STR isn't much at all, and +3 acc isn't really that much either. No need for Boreas Cesti either, these are level 30. --Toksyuryel 20:55, 4 December 2006 (EST) Well, i dare to differ. They are for sure not the best weapon up to cross counters. And i really do not like the idea of depending on a very occasional boost of damage. Monk is all about dealing damage over time, and every punched missed is a loss, and every damage on every punch counts. But, for the 2 levels from 30 to 32 they are an alternative. Their availability is very low, but if you want a replacement for your previous weapon, it is a good choice for sure. At 32 i still recomend Impact Knuckles. On the camping: probably you can get the Boreas Cesti drop pretty good, but its not a 100% drop. At these levels, think about how fast you gain a level. One jungle party and you are from 29 to 32 in one evening, if its a decent one. So... as i said, go for them if you want to go camping and have a unique weapon, but its far away from a recomendation by me. --Gisselle 11:08, 6 December 2006 (EST) In any event even the NQ Hydro Claws are way better than the Boreas Cesti, even without kilo pumps, it's just not worth camping period. I would suggest removing them from the list and replacing them with the NQ Hydro Claws, which are generally available. And don't forget that even though some people will only use them for two levels in xp parties, there are lots of level 30 capped events that these will be very useful in. --Toksyuryel 12:33, 7 December 2006 (EST) Regarding /drg If one has both the Wyvern Earring and the Wyvern Mantle, it is my belief that /drg is preferable until level 50 (at which point /war wins hands-down because of Double Attack). I have been doing this myself and it has been working out very well so far. --Toksyuryel 18:22, 6 December 2006 (EST) Yes it works. Is it preferable over /war - in my opinion not. The damage output per single hit about the same with /war (due to stats), and you have the very valuable option of using provoke to keep something of the mages, like a slept link for example. This holds especially true for the levels you refer to, and above 50 /war wins as you stated. But anyhow, if you like to use it, get good results, just go ahead, it is just nothing i would recomend. --Gisselle 09:35, 7 December 2006 (EST) ---- ---- Gear Selections.. You mentioned that Byakko's Haidate wouldn't be real good for a Monk. Are you kidding me? It's easily the best legs piece in the game for Monk besides the Usukane legs, which is only because they have Attack+12 (2.5 Attack from the STR5). This is easily the best piece for legs as a Monk, not because of the haste, but because of the bulk of DEX that this gives, it provides 7.5 Accuracy. Which comes to another point to add. You mention that Flame rings and Triumph Earrings are REALLY good pieces to get, but actually, they're some of the most worthless investments as a Monk. STR is NOT a big attribute towards Monk, since it doesn't hold much of a bar into our Melee AND WS (except for lower level like RF). For earring, you'll be much better off with 2x Mermans Earrings than 2x Triumph Earrings. Easily. Attack+12 vs STR+4 is a silly debate. The -Evasion is nothing, since you can just macro in Evasion+5 from Elusive Earring and Evasion Skill+3 from the Evasion Earring if you really need it at that time. Monk already has a nice STR to give them a huge cap to try and reach where STR won't effect Attack that much. It's only when you have about 700+ attack where STR might become a factor if your Accuracy is already top-notch while eating Meat(85-90% Accuracy is good). You also didn't mention ANYTHING about Toreador's Ring or Mars's ring. The best rings for Monk in the game. Wayyy better than Rajas, since STR does not provide as much as a bonus as you might think. Hell, 2x Sniper will easily outperform 2x Flame rings. You're only getting 5 Attack out of both of those :/ There isn't any macros which provide equipment changes for certain situations either, which could help players understand that a Monk isn't about just engaging, there's more to the job since we're more based on our Equipment. Should also add in a Food section, so people at 75 aren't gimping themselves eating Sushi while having H2H merits. Also a merit section would be nice. I already have one done in the Forums, so I might just do that in it's own separate guide. I understand that you might have had your own experiences, but due to multiple parses from many other Monk's, having Accuracy and Attack will benefit you much more than STR will. The only exceptional STR piece is the Kirin's Osode, which provides a lot of it in bulk. Also helps you bring up your Attack cap more, so eating meat(Hedgehog/Porcupine Pie) will really boost you with Minuet/MadrigalorMarchorMinuet. The Barbarossa's Zerehs are also not too good a piece, since STR+4 and VIT+4 WON'T benefit you much compared to DEX+15. VIT won't make much of a difference in Weapon Skills either really, since the modifiers of a majority of Monk's weapon skills are very small like Asuran Fists for example. You won't be wearing a Genbu's Kabuto and Kirin's Osode for WS on Asuran. You would be wearing an Optical hat and a Shura Togi for WS. This is because they both have more accuracy, allowing you to land all 8 of those hits easier. Check your TP every time you WS, you'll notice that you don't land all those hits, and that's a reason why some of your WS's are low. The ONLY reason why /NIN is a "good" subjob option is so you can have a better chain due to mages losing too much MP with healing a MNK/WAR. Other than that, /NIN sucks. It's strong for survivability, but has no Offensive attributes that contribute whatsoever. That's my 2 cents on this guide~ -Cyprias You know, normally I don't care much about stuff like this, but I have to speak up. I know there's the warning label at the top about it being a guide, but as such it should not be spoken as fact in some areas, such as: - Kirin's Osode is not the flat best piece you can wear. Ever. Only in chi blasting is it the absolute most superior thing for the job. Does it do everything well? Yes. It is not the best. - You do not need a scorpion harness. It's nice, but with the age of sushi roaming rampantly, it is far from being a deal breaker. - As a guide, this should not even mention Vulcan's Ring, because it just plain doesn't exist. - In your legs section: '75 Byakko's Haidate +15 DEX and +5% Haste is great, as the name says a rare/ex drop from Byakko. If your LS likes to give you some, you are lucky, but its still not one of the real good pieces for you.' WHAT!? Whatever you're on, please pass some of it to me...where in your head are you not convinced that 7.5 accuracy (the side effect of 15 DEX), 5% haste, and a nice little HP boost aren't all good things (nay, the best things) all to have on a single slot?? - Lastly, avoiding /NIN until 74 is a useless statement, as you have just misdirected the point of the /NIN subjob; having ichi/ni is not necessary for /NIN to do it's job, which is survival. It should be treated as such, regardless of level. I used it in the O/U airship battle, which is capped at 60. I would have died many times over if I hadn't had those ichi shadows. Your mainjob level does not impact your use of /NIN on Monk, since we do not care about nor get the real benefit of Dual Wield. Edit (Norellicus 23:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT)): Forgot one more...there is no debate. Peacock Charm at +10 Accuracy is and will always be better than +3 STR +3 DEX from Spike Necklace. Period. Your opinion on this matter is irrelevant. Math does not lie. I'm not trying to nitpick, but for a premiere site that does nothing but provide information to the playerbase, this should be as refined as possible, and these are the things that require immediate tuning. Norellicus 23:34, 21 March 2007 (EDT) Since this has clearly gone untouched by the author for some time, and because his gear section specifically says to contribute what has been overlooked, I added/modified a few things to reflect availability and accurate information. Norellicus 15:53, 4 June 2007 (CDT) Recent Edits by other users Umm well, i apreciate the effort, and i will look over the changes shortly. I desagree on some points, and i do not like the style changes which where made. Furthermore, i sadly must say that some comments on this talk page lack a certain politeness. I am sure the people who are meant will know what i mean, so please return to more civil manners. --Gisselle 12:17, 19 June 2007 (CDT) *I revised the section on DRG - whoever edited that did not keep the spirit of the guide in the way i would like it. DRG is still not commonly seen as a good subjob, i do not deny its uses, but i rather put more weight on the consideration of the downsides of this subjob. *I strongly dislike the disregard of +VIT items for weaponskills. VIT modifiers are quite common for monk weaponskills, and these stat modifiers DO make a difference. This is tested. So if you like to discuss that, this is the page for it, i strongly advise against just editing it in my guide. It is true that it can / should be disregarded for Asuran fists, but there are other WS before that, and dragon kick and howling fist are modified by 50% by VIT for example. *I furthermore dislike the absoluteness, with which gear is introduced here, especially expensive one. There are always options and other opinions, and i like to leave room for that in my guide. I often discuss an item and leave it to the player which to use, and that is how i like to keep this guide. I do not want a guide where every part of gear is set into stone or you are gimped. There are many ways to be good and to having good gear, and in the end it is the skill of the player what makes a good monk. I changed a lot of parts which where added in the equipment section in the view of that. *On Kirin's Osode - i never said its flat the best, i said its probably the best. I changed the entry mostly back, and mentioned shura togi as possibly better. If you have other gear which is better, or disagree on the Togi, feel free to discuss it and offer the alternatives. But just downgrading the Osode just does not do it. *On Vulcans Ring - yes you are right, at the time of writing it was still rumored to exist. It is confirmed now that it does not, still the rumors are around. I changed the entry apropriately - still mentioning it, but as nonexistent. --Gisselle 17:36, 19 June 2007 (CDT) * on Cyprias: I thank you for your input, i have taken your points into consideration and worked them into the guide. Some stuff still needs working on though. Thats what these new sections are for.--Gisselle 17:36, 19 June 2007 (CDT) Updates I wasn't really being too bitter on my discussion of this guide, as I didn't really come out as a completely pissed off person. I just suggested my points. Only other thing I'll add is I think the Spectacles outperform the Chivalrous Chain. Although you get STR+3 and Store TP+1, the STR+3 will have a minimal effect compared to the accuracy, and Store TP+1 will hardly ever kick in compared to how it does with Rajas ring. Basically, 2 Accuracy > 3 STR Store TP+1. Sounds like a messed up trade-off, but eating Meat really shows that 2 Accuracy helps, Tiphia sting being an example of improvements from it's small accuracy boost. --Cyprias 20:58, 19 June 2007 (CDT) I think the problem with +acc items is, that even if you pile up on it, you end up eating sushi more often than not, except on highly merrited people at lvl 75. In your leveling phase you do not have that additional HTH skill and so on, so you end up eating sushi to be able to hit things in a decent rate. When you eat sushi, the small Acc boost is not that significant any more, but piling up on attack even through str is making a difference. I kind of follow the rule of diminishing returns, which we all know to apply to many areas of the game. So the real question would be, pile up on acc gear and eat meat or pile up on att gear and eat sushi. I personally am a sushi+1 eater (yes i know the +1 does not make a big difference), since even fully acc geared i wiffed to much for my taste. But i am not highly merrited, so not sure about endgame. --Gisselle 00:55, 20 June 2007 (CDT) Ah ok. That might explain a bit. I have capped Hand-to-Hand merits, thus I eat Attack food and benefit much more than if I were to have Attack/STR build from eating Sushi. Well, with eating Sushi, Chiv chain would be the best bet then, otherwise, when eating meat, Spectacles would be the latter in the choices for neck. --Cyprias 01:12, 20 June 2007 (CDT) I think that would be right too. I'll change the entry on Specs accordingly. --Gisselle 01:38, 20 June 2007 (CDT) Your revisions are passable, as they provide neutrality and correct contrast, in all but two places: 1) Bibiki Seashell. VIT may have an impact, but missing hurts more. 2 Accuracy > 4 VIT, even at 50% bonus. Since your lists appear progressive to the naked eye, and not just as 'availability', please re-mention that the sting should still be used for WS. 2) Kirin's Osode. My comment was perfectly neutral, and you know it. I admitted that it does a good job at just about everything. It still is NOT the best piece you can wear, in any circumstance other than chi-blast, and should not be cast in that light. Edit (Norellicus 22:17, 21 June 2007 (CDT)): 3) Scorpion Harness is still not *needed*. Be logical here, your AF has 5 accuracy. You yourself above admit that piling accuracy still leads to eating sushi quite often, and that extra +5 is not going to break you in those cases. A SH is far from the top of the list as necessary. I'm being excessively reasonable here, as I'd prefer to see every monk in a SH/Pln. Body; stop and think about it, work with me. Other than those, it looks fine (not that you need my approval, just saying I agree with your rewording; I've seen cases on other wikis where it becomes an "Oh yeah I wrote it I know better" and they just revert it back exactly how it was, accurate or not). I find it annoying that you simply reworded some of my changes that expressed the same feelings in the before and after, but whatever. Thanks for updating it. As I mentioned before, I didn't intend to step on your toes, but it was several months with zero response or updates from you, and you openly invited additions/corrections. --Norellicus 22:13, 21 June 2007 (CDT) @Norellicus * i invited to give input: on the talk page * yes i reword stuff if someone edits directly in the guide, i like to say stuff in my style * on the Osode again: i rewrote the entry, gave an alternative. I asked for alternatives here. I do not get any from you, you just insist on your position. So please give alternatives and explain them or drop the issue. * Bibiki Seashell - well lets the people themselves decide, i put it up to the player as options * SH - yes i know, i only reworded it and sticked with my opinion. Ditching 5 acc and 10 eva just because not wanting to spend the gil? I do not get the point. If there is a good alternative, ok. But SH is clearly better than AF. Just expensive... Disappointing; you clearly have no intention of listening to reason, and this is simply a matter of control. Thanks for reminding me why my wiki account went unused for so very long. I'll leave you to your hole now. Sorry, but i can only ignore this here now. --Gisselle 03:15, 23 June 2007 (CDT)